Point of This Blog

If Indian geopolitics isn't the focus of your interest then you might not see much value in this blog. You might wonder: What is the point of repeated posts boasting of better Chinese results?
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Tuesday, March 22, 2011

Why is India Bad at Civil Engineering?

Yesterday, I was linked by Marginal Revolution, the most popular economics blog, so I received a lot of traffic and some feedback. Some of my critics say I offer no insights, just bland comparisons of China doing better than India.

A commenter writes:
I would love to know more about the mechanisms by which the Chinese government is more efficient than the Indian government, but this is just cheerleading and axe-grinding.
For this post, I'll assert an explanation. In previous posts, I contended popular explanations for the difference in performance are unsatisfactory:
Corrupt Chinese Babus Get the Job Done - Chinese officials are corrupt but still manage to meet targets so corruption isn't a decisive explanation for missed targets in India.
Libya: Chinese v. Indian Government Ability to Get Things Done - If China can pull off a rapid evacuation in a country where it exerts no control then India can't claim China is able to do stuff just because of authoritarian government.
China is ahead not because of a lack of disadvantages or unfair advantage but because it has done much more to cultivate the necessary human capital for creating a rich country.

Last summer, a New York Times article, "A High-Tech Titan Plagued by Potholes," sought to explain the country's weak infrastructure and frustrated efforts.
"The problem is a dearth of engineers — or at least the civil engineers with the skill and expertise to make sure those ambitious projects are done on time and up to specifications."
The cause of this talent scarcity is the pull of better paid industries.
"Its much-envied information technology industry generates tens of thousands of relatively well-paying jobs every year. But that lure also continues the exodus of people qualified to build the infrastructure it desperately needs to improve living conditions for the rest of its one billion people — and to bolster the sort of industries that require good highways and railroads more than high-speed Internet links to the West."

"Moreover, many civil engineers who earn degrees in the discipline never work in the profession or — like Mr. Mandvekar — leave it soon after they graduate to take better-paying jobs in information technology, management consulting or financial services."

“You don’t get the best quality in civil engineers, because today the first choice for students is other branches” of engineering, said K. P. Raghavan, an executive vice president in L.& T.’s construction division. “We are compensating with lots of training.”
But the article doesn't inquire about the root of the shortage. Ideally, there should be enough good engineers in India to meet both the needs of private and public sectors. After all, China Railways can hire thousands of new engineers every year despite the lure of "information technology, management consulting or financial services" and other expanding industries.

There isn't a human capital shortage in China because public education is much better. Most of us have heard Shanghai students did very well on PISA, an international math, science, and reading test of 15 year olds. The Shanghai results are admirable but the impressive accomplishment of Chinese education is the progress of poor regions:
Citing further, as-yet unpublished OECD research, Mr Schleicher said: “We have actually done Pisa in 12 of the provinces in China. Even in some of the very poor areas you get performance close to the OECD average.”
What a revelation. The inland farmer's child is getting a public education comparable in results to rich countries. (Chinese public education is still flawed with high fees too burdensome for the poor for the last three years of high school.) The latest Pratham survey of rural Indian education shows the teachers might not even be showing up:

However even by grade five, when most kids are nine or 10, only about half, or 53.4%, are able to read at a level pegged for seven or eight-year-olds, marginally up from a year earlier.

In 2009, the number of kids in fifth grade who could read at a second grade level was 52.8%, down from 56.2% a year earlier.

This comparison of education results, the difference between first world standards in China and no learning in India, is far more stark than the 40 years it will take India to complete the Kashmir Railway and the 5 years it took for China to connect to Tibet. India has a shortage of good engineers because its public education is terrible. More troubling for India is the lack of improvement over the last few years. The survey even indicates a decline in some 2010 results. This generation of India hasn't been well educated so expect China to maintain its lead and accelerate further for another generation. There is no indication of change so another generation will be poorly educated and India will lag for at least 2 generations.

44 comments:

  1. Who is the Frederick the Great of India? Who is the Confucius of Bharatland. That seems to explain it all.

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  2. I believe their I believe their inaptitude stems from their millennia old cultural heritage of talking more than doing things. This is evident from their ability to claim credit and excel in societies that has got established working systems which delivers results. For example, you may observe that there are many Indian managers and consultants but when it comes to skilled blue collar workers, you won’t seem to find much of it.

    Furthermore, I have never seen people that are so insecure, envious and boastful anywhere. There is even a joke that, you don’t have to spy on India, the Government will announce every military development and you just reduce the potency of that program by a third and triple the duration.

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  3. According to stats 1/4 of Indian females age 15-24 are illiterate. At the current rate of improvement they should reach the 99% mark (already attained by China) in approx. 30 years. So yes, I think your sense that India is two generations behind is just about right.

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  4. You forget IQ.

    Google: IQ and the Wealth of Nations.

    India IQ: 81.

    China IQ: 108.

    That is why India is poor.

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  5. Yes Indians are lazy. They do not work. They are corrupt. India has never competed for no. 1 position in any field. But then Indians believe that exponential growth can not last. They also believe in cyclical nature of growth. So where is the hurry?

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  6. At the Anonymous guy with IQ post above, I'll respond to that by 1 word.
    Stupid.

    As for the article, argument seems very plausible, esp. considering the roads i see in my state and through out India.

    No country has ever truly developed without 1st building an Infrastructure. India seems to buck the trend by being the 1st it seems or atleast it thinks it can.
    Again I'll use 1 word to describe this though pattern.
    Stupid.

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  7. The blogger has done a fabulous job so far in highlighting many "sterotpyes" ans inconsistancies about "Shining India" in corporate-spnsored MSM (Main Stream Media) which primarily aim at misleading.

    Bravo!




    @ Varun

    Considering your capability, I'll say it very slowly:

    Person A was amongst the top of the class intellectually. He became a top class engineer after the graduation;

    Person B ranked at the lower-middle of the class intellectually. He became an engineer, too, somehow, albeit an absymal one.

    Everyone knows why since it's the common sense.

    ...

    Two dozens of Person A will do a much better engineer job (and any other job for that matter) than 2 dozens of Person B;

    20,000 of Person A will perform a much better railway project than 20,000 Person B;

    ...

    So does 1.2 billion Person A , and person B - a.k.a. AVERAGE

    Corruption or not, sunny outside or not, speaking English or not... they make minor differences.

    ...

    For practical purpose, the larger the "project" is, the more cystally obvious that the average IQ makes sense.

    In statistical sense, average IQ starts to show with pinpoint accuracy when the "sample size" goes beyond merely 30 - there we have a glimpse on how a small sized team work would end up.

    When the "sample size" goes up to 1.2 Billion, however, we'll witness how a country rises or falls.

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  8. Excellent assessment about India's educational shortcomings. Apart from not paying attention to their education quality and infrastructure, they have truly shot themselves in the foot by reserving 50 percent of all, already very limited seats in educational institutions, for the large voting population of what Indian constitution calls "backward" people, regardless of their merit. As a result, 50% of the non-backward people do not get proper education, even if they are more deserving. The same backward people get 50% of the govt jobs, so the poor quality of government is assured with the incompetent (and also lazy and corrupt) staff, who cannot be sacked. I do not know of any country in the world which is this stupid. There's really no comparison between China and India. It's a pipe dream of Indians, bolstered by China haters in the West, to even think of a comparison.

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  9. @Anonymous trying to explain the IQ study to me, "slowly"

    That post is all baloney.

    All i commented on was this assumption that anyone in this world can say that average IQ of India is 81 when infact there has never been any study on this.
    And furthermore given the size of the country to even suggest such a thing i consider offensive.

    And then there is this suggestion that India is poor because its IQ is 81,
    If someone is trying to rationalize this thought and argue in its favour then I am afraid I cant help or argue with that people

    As the india sayign goes
    "Bhains ke samne been bajana"

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  10. " ...say that average IQ of India is 81 when infact there has never been any study on this."


    A outright lie. Very smooth nonetheless.


    "...If someone is trying to rationalize this thought and argue in its favour then I am afraid I cant help or argue with that people."


    I wish that I could have spoken slower,trust me. My bad, as I overestmimated the raw power of 81...

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  11. How many of you Chink-eyes, 5-footers are in US? And what percentage of those are in the top positions both in R&D and management in private industries compared to the Indian Diaspora? Rather how many of you have even learnt how to speak English after having lived here for more than 2 decades? Higher IQ, yah ofcourse :)
    By the way, as pointed earlier, comparing nation wide IQs is not possible for such large countries. If anything, my own experience with Chinese and Indian people says that the Indians have at least way more common sense than the Chinese which is what is mostly needed as an Engineer, not rote learning as what the Chinese are used to. Maybe you should look at your education system.

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  12. The debate about intelligence is pointless, as both countries will have quite a large number of above-intelligence people, based on their high populations, according to the Bell curve. The real point is what have they done to nurture and use that intelligence. If we look at the state of China and India, the answer is clear.
    A large diaspora of a people, usually indicates that there's some problem in the home country, which is pushing out its people. So Indians may be smart, but their government certainly isn't. In fact, any government which forces out its best talent from their country, has to be incredibly stupid.

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  13. "The debate about intelligence is pointless, as both countries will have quite a large number of above-intelligence people, based on their high populations, according to the Bell curve."

    It is pointless because nothing can be done to change it. It has a point because India can then be judged after adjusting for the nearly 2 standard deviation intelligence difference between China and India (the same as the IQ difference between Jewish-Americans and African-Americans). Indians are doing okay for a stupid people.

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  14. @"intelligent" Chinese anonymous:

    While there is certainly no dearth of imbeciles in India, claims of superior intelligence on the part of some Chinese does not seem accurate. If that were so, why has china not produced anything of value for centuries after the magnetic compass? How did the most intelligent race end up being the underdog for centuries?

    Likewise, when placed in the same environment, for instance in the US, Indians actually score a higher GDP per capita than Chinese. Look up GDP per capita by ancestry on wikipedia, based on the 2000 US census.

    Also, both the statistics and reasoning behind "IQ and The Wealth of Nations" are inadequate. The IQs of whole nations was derived based on sample sets encompassing a couple of schools, nor does it take into account the Flynn effect.
    Would it also follow that the Chinese were retards a generation or two ago when their development was far behind? The role of confounding factors is completely unaddressed.

    Other Indian posters: in general my experience is that those who harp on about the superiority of particular groups tend to emerge from the loser end of that group. Neo-Nazis or white supremacists come to mind. One's energies are better directed at resolving the admittedly many shortcomings plaguing India, particularly shamefully poor education and transportation infrastructure.

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  15. @Tai Chi:

    My compliments for taking an objective look at the issue. Your analysis is incomplete however; please try to suggest ways and means whereby this situation may be remedied.

    A somewhat radical thought occurs to me: would India be better off long term under a Naxalite regime? Whatever else is true of communists, evidence from Cuba to the USSR to China suggests that they tend to do a good job of providing efficient and universal primary education and basic healthcare. The current Indian elites seem totally inept in this regard given their record spanning over 6 decades.

    Note that I'm not necessarily endorsing this, but inviting your thoughts about this possibility.

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  16. "The IQs of whole nations was derived based on sample sets encompassing a couple of schools, nor does it take into account the Flynn effect."

    Indian mendacity once again. It is not a couple of schools. They've averaged it across multiples studies over a 2 decade period for India. Also, China didn't have a poor IQ 2 decades ago, when it was far from being a middle income nation.


    How do South Asians stack up? Read this:

    http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~tzajonc/india_shining_jan27_flat.pdf

    "Children enrolled in secondary schools in these two Indian states are 3.1 (OECD) standard deviations
    below the OECD mean. Since secondary enrollment in India is below that of other countries in the TIMSS study, the performance of the median child is almost certainly considerably worse."


    This is consistent with a South Asian IQ of approximately 81, which is a good 19 points below the White mean.

    "The results from a countrywide testing exercise in rural areas (Pratham 2006) gives us some sense of where these states lie in the Indian distribution. Among children tested in Grade 8 countrywide (rural areas only), 82.4 percent could read a story, 75.2 percent could divide and 95.5 percent
    could write. The average of Orissa (83.98 percent (read), 71 percent (divide) and 95.3 percent (write)) and Rajasthan (92.9 percent can read, 92.4 percent can divide and 98.5 percent can write)is surprisingly not far off the Indian average—if anything, these results suggest that children in these two states may be scoring higher than the rest of the country. " Do also note that Table 5 summarizes where India would stand as a country, in terms of mean Math achievement, and it is essentially on par with Palestine, and worse than Egypt and Tunisia.

    Shanghai, which participated in the PISA, scores better than OECD countries despite having poorer facilities and a far lower investment in education than other countries. New Jersey, in contrast, has the 2nd highest educational spending in the US (see here: http://www.eiaonline.com/statistics/tables3-4.pdf) but pretty poor outcomes. Demographics is destiny!

    Read this: http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/5422

    India has roughly the same number of Mathematically advanced students than S. Korea which has roughly 5% of India's cohort enrolled in schools. There's a reason why the East Asians dominate the Math Olympiads.

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  17. Indeed, you will have to bow to your new Asian overlords :)

    Arts and culture:

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KD21Ad01.html

    General Comparison:

    http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/sep/27china.htm

    (east asian dominance in education here: http://i36.tinypic.com/28b5uzp.jpg)


    http://vikramvgarg.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/india_math.png

    "As it turns out, Indian students perform worse than 42 of the 51 countries tested in 2003. The average student from Orissa and Rajasthan could only answer 37 and 34 of the questions correctly whereas the international average was 52. The bottom 5 percent of Indian students perform worse than students of all countries except three. About 85 % of 9th grade Indian students struggled to even choose the minimum value out of the set 0.625, 0.25, 0.375, 0.5 and 0.125.

    Many will try and argue that Rajasthan and Orissa are perhaps not the most representative states, however the nationwide Pratham survey (which tests students of lower grades) indicated that these states are among the better performing ones in India when it came to quality of education. If anything the choice of Orissa and Rajasthan might have given a positive bias to the true all India situation."

    China's spacewalk vs India's (failed) Chandrayaan mission:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/world/asia/28china.html?_r=1


    Computing:

    http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/careers-hr/people-management/news/index.cfm?NewsId=15144&RSS

    "But of the 70 finalists in it, 20 were from China, 10 from Russia and only two from the US. China's showing in the finals was also helped by the sheer volume of its numbers, 894. India followed at 705, but none of its programmers were finalists."

    http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/19/0148220

    Multiple Chinese teams in the top 10 - none from India.

    http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/060909-china-dominates-nsa-backed-coding.html?hpg1=bn

    Software superpower India? The code coming out of China is clean, their pool of talented high-IQ, and conscientious people nearly limitless. Wait and watch -- 10 years later China really will have us creamed here too.

    Chem Olympiads:

    http://punekar.in/site/2009/08/07/india-bags-seventh-spot-at-international-chemistry-olympiad/

    India 7th ... China 1st :)

    International Math Olympiad - the less said the better. 9 of the last ten years, Chinese have come first. 8 Indians have got golds in the last 40 years - over 40 Chinese have in the last 9. The much vaunted IITians again bite the dust. I mean, in 2006 (individual ranking data checked only for that period), 6 of the top 13 participants at the IMO were Chinese. The top ranking Indian was ranked 140-odd. They probably have a pool of over a 100 students better than the best IITian Math student any given year. That's a mind-blowing performance at the high-IQ end of the spectrum (corroborated by data indicating they have a 20 point IQ edge over India).

    We know where the future fields medalists are going to come from.

    http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.china/msg/188e5fbe8e021479?pli=1

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  18. And the US Math Olympiad team here:

    http://www.maa.org/news/062609usimo.html

    US Mathcount winners here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winners_of_the_Mathcounts_competition


    Music:

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JL02Ad01.html


    Miscellaneous Comments:

    http://tinyurl.com/m6hfvo

    China is the ONLY nation out of 104 where all 6 out of 6 participants
    were awarded *gold* medals (cutoff: top 1/12 of all contestants).

    And the only 2 contestants out of 565 who had perfect marks and who
    scored at the 100th% percentile hail from North East Asia:

    (a) Makoto Soejima of Japan
    (b) Dongyi Wei of China

    Now we turn our attention to the International Physics Olympiad (IPhO).
    This is their 40th anniversary, and was held in Mérida, Mexico from the
    11th July 2009 to the 19th July 2009. Normally students who do well in
    math tend to ace physics, but due to the overlap of dates with the IMO
    very few if any managed to participate in both events. In other words,
    we're sampling a different talent pool here.

    Participating countries will send up to 5 students (contestants) to the
    IPhO. Gold Medals are awarded to 8% of the contestants; gold or silver
    medals are awarded to 25% of the contestants; gold, silver or bronze
    medals are awarded to 50% of the contestants; and Olympic Medals or
    Honorable Mentions are awarded to 67% of the contestants. That is, the
    overall criteria very closely parallels that of the IMO (with exception
    of the HM category.)

    70 countries participated, with 315 contestants in total (not every
    country sent 5 contestants). Unlike the IMO however, the International
    Physics Olympiad does not explicitly rank countries. Individual results
    are as follows:

    http://ipho2009.smf.mx/marks

    Top 5 out of 315 contestants:

    1. China's Handuo Shi
    2. Taiwan's Yu-An Chen
    3. Korea's Donggun Kim
    4. China's Qian Lin
    5. China's Jin Lei

    The pattern is once again so eerily familiar with the IMO: all the top
    dogs hail from North East Asia.

    In fact, the China team once again has a perfect 5/5 record on the gold
    medal list. Casual inspection shows no other country achieving this
    perfect gold medal record.


    "Something more than the mental mechanics of classical music makes this decisive for China. In classical music, China has embraced the least Chinese, and the most explicitly Western, of all art forms. Even the best Chinese musicians still depend on Western mentors. Lang Lang may be a star, but in some respects he remains an apprentice in the pantheon of Western musicians. The Chinese, in some ways the most arrogant of peoples, can elicit a deadly kind of humility in matters of learning. Their eclecticism befits an empire that is determined to succeed, as opposed to a mere nation that needs to console itself by sticking to its supposed cultural roots. Great empires transcend national culture and naturalize the culture they require. "

    "The world’s largest country is well along the way to forming an intellectual elite on a scale that the world has never seen, and against which nothing in today’s world - surely not the inbred products of the Ivy League puppy mills - can compete."

    The Asians eschew religion in favor of the best from the West. They eschew political correctness in favor of what works - be it in social science or the hard sciences. And they're astonishingly smart.

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  19. Finally, a list of the most recent Putnam Fellows:

    Ricky I. Liu (Harvard)
    Tiankai Liu (Harvard)
    Hansheng Diao (MIT)
    Po-Ru Loh (Caltech)
    Yufei Zhao (MIT)
    Jason C. Bland (Caltech)
    Brian R. Lawrence (Caltech)
    Qingchun Ren (MIT)
    Xuancheng Shao (MIT)
    Arnav Tripathy (Harvard)
    Seok Hyeong Lee (Stanford)
    Bohua Zhan (MIT)
    William Johnson (U of Washington)
    Xiaosheng Mu (Yale)

    On the Putnam contest:

    The examination is considered to be very difficult: it is typically attempted by students specializing in mathematics, but the median score is usually one or two points out of 120 possible, and there have been only three perfect scores as of 2008[update]. In 2003, of the 3,615 students taking the exam, 1024 (28%) scored 10 or more points, and 42 points was sufficient to make the top 102.

    Many Putnam Fellows have gone on to become distinguished researchers in mathematics and other fields, including three Fields Medalists—Milnor, Mumford, and Quillen—and two Nobel laureates in physics—Feynman and Wilson.

    ReplyDelete
  20. I see that our super intelligent chinese wannabe overlord has a peculiarly poor understanding of statistics, making population wide proclamations based on a narrow sample set of "Olympiads". This is akin to making claims for the health of a population based on the number of medals won in the olympics; based on this measure Americans are the fittest nation on earth (more medals per capita than china), ignoring the tens of millions wallowing in morbid obesity. However even a mediocre statistician will be aware of the confounding effect of looking at narrow examples; propaganda oriented states like china are particularly likely to heavily invest in producing "prize horses" which may not be representative.

    A much better measure of "innate talent" for those interested in objectivity and not tendentious pre-determined conclusions, is to look at situations where the variable of interest (nationality/race) is the only significant difference. For this reason, it is advisable to look at situations where the populations under question exist under identical external circumstances.

    As I mentioned above, Indians in the US earn somewhat more than Chinese. Note that millions of Indians are being compared to millions of Chinese, making this a statistically relevant comparison. Now I await our genius's arguments as to why we should ignore this and focus on competitions involving a few dozen unrepresentative participants.

    Another parameter to consider could be the number of interenational patents where indians/chinese were lead inventors. Just such a study was conducted and published in nature biotech in March 2010. Both Indians and Chinese accounted for 15% each of the total number of patents with foreign inventors; including Taiwan (which isn't politically valid, but still) China's share rises to 25%. A glance at the statistics shows that this is roughly the proportion of Indians and Chinese in the US. Again millions are being compared to millions.

    All in all a sad underperformance by the smartest race, barely keeping at par, if that, with virtual retards with IQ in the 80s.

    Note to Indian readers: this isn't to suggest that grevious shortcomings in the provision of good universal education may be overlooked. The quality of public education is atrocious, what with absentee and poorly trained teachers and
    shoddy infrastructure being the norm. It should grate on one's nerves no end.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Another point for Indian readers: There is a great deal for india to learn from china, which should not be obscured by the juvenile nonsense secreted by our smartest race genius. In particular good public education and infrastructure like roads or ports or power plants are indispensable to progress. I urge deep introspection in this regard and effort on a war footing.

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  22. I would like to see an end to this discussion based on "innate" intelligence. The people who make these arguments are nothing but ethnic chauvinists.

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  23. "I see that our super intelligent chinese wannabe overlord has a peculiarly poor understanding of statistics, making population wide proclamations based on a narrow sample set of "Olympiads". "

    Wannabe and will be. More garbage. The statistics on AVERAGE IQ are based on large samples (note also the difference in IQ between Malaysian Indians and Malaysian Chinese, Singaporean Indians and Singaporean Chinese, and how well Indians in Fiji and the Carribean do). This is really representative of what India can achieve, unlike the selected sample that goes to the US.

    What I provide is a rebuttal to the Indians-have-so-many-geniuses line of thinking. They hardly have any when compared to either East Asians or Whites.



    "However even a mediocre statistician will be aware of the confounding effect of looking at narrow examples; propaganda oriented states like china are particularly likely to heavily invest in producing "prize horses" which may not be representative. "

    Is the Putnam or Mathcounts exam Chinese? Why do you ignore than? What about the topcoder contest? The Chinese bell curve is just shifted to the right by almost a couple of standard deviations vis-a-vis India.


    "As I mentioned above, Indians in the US earn somewhat more than Chinese. Note that millions of Indians are being compared to millions of Chinese, making this a statistically relevant comparison. "

    I need to know why one shouldn't compare the millions of representative (low-IQ) Indians spread all over the world (Malaysia, Fiji, Carribean - truly representative) with indentured Chinese laborers that built Hong-Kong and Singapore? Lee Kuan Yew has said this in so many ways himself.


    "Another parameter to consider could be the number of interenational patents where indians/chinese were lead inventors. Just such a study was conducted and published in nature biotech in March 2010. Both Indians and Chinese accounted for 15% each of the total number of patents with foreign inventors; including Taiwan (which isn't politically valid, but still) China's share rises to 25%."

    Wrong populations to compare. But this shows why one should treat individuals as individuals. Even a population of near-retards can produce some smart people. It is called a probability distribution. Also, provide links as I have read a lot of Indian propaganda and do not trust anything that an Indian says.

    " I would like to see an end to this discussion based on "innate" intelligence. The people who make these arguments are nothing but ethnic chauvinists."

    Indians are the biggest ethnic chauvinists.

    See this link and this statement from a high-profile educator.

    "India is competitive in terms of imparting quality education, she believes. "Our primary and higher secondary education is far superior, our IQ level is very high too. Our average student outperforms the brilliant American," she claims."

    http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/nov/03/slide-show-1-our-average-student-outperforms-the-american.htm


    Whites don't dominate the ranks of Nobel laureates and Fields Medalists being stupid ... and stupid people didn't make the airplane, harness electricity, create symplectic geometry, the transistor, the polio vaccine, the MRI, the internal-combustion engine, modern democracy, the theory of Banach spaces, prove Fermat's last theorem and the Poincare conjecture, propose those conjectures, compose the Moonlight Sonata, discover the purine-pyrimidine structure of the DNA ladder, and pretty much everything that separates the civilized from the uncivilized. Who are the best Mathematicians, Physicists and Computer Scientists in the world? Indians? Hell no.

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  24. Your long tirades about IQ are obnoxious. I recommend finding some activity to boost your level of personal achievement rather than brag about the achievements of other people.

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  25. "Your long tirades about IQ are obnoxious. I recommend finding some activity to boost your level of personal achievement rather than brag about the achievements of other people."

    Do you have a rebuttal to offer?

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  26. @Chinese wannabe genius:

    Pitiful. So an example that places millions of Indians under identical circumstances as millions of Chinese and produces a comparable result or somewhat better in favor of Indians is to be dismissed as a consequence of a "select" group. Presumably it did not occur to you that exactly the same is true of Chinese in the US.

    Regarding the patents data, see the march 2010 issue of nature biotechnology. It requires a subscription though, I'm doubtful whether your like has access to such material or the gray matter to digest it. Again millions to millions comparison under identical external circumstances.

    On the other hand niche events replete with confounding effects and narrow sample sets must be shouted out from the rooftops, coincidentally these being in favor of your pre-arrived conclusion.

    Do you have an objective rebuttal or not?

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  27. @Bell curve-ball:

    So the statement of one woman is to be extrapolated to a population of 1.2 billion. On the the hand, official duplicitousness of the PRC exhibited in instances like doctored footage of the olympics fireworks or widespread plagiarism and piracy are ignored.

    You certainly have some kind of genius ability, only not a good one.

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  28. @genius:

    "Wrong populations to compare.."

    How so? Provide rationale based on objective data and reasoning.

    I note that despite several posts and copious secretions, you haven't offered any explanation of the US GDP per capita and patents data consistent with your hypothesis.

    Note to Indian readers: despite the clownish behavior of this particular specimen, there is a great deal for India to learn from China. I suggest we concentrate on absorbing the positives and avoid the negatives; well exemplified by the current hot air volcano.

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  29. Please shut these type of things up and we are going to have Lokjan Pal Bill to eradicate corruption and I am sure, with this, India and China will again make U.S. a mouse.!!!! And I am proud that India is democratic whereas China is not.

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  30. "See this link and this statement from a high-profile educator.

    "India is competitive in terms of imparting quality education, she believes. "Our primary and higher secondary education is far superior, our IQ level is very high too. Our average student outperforms the brilliant American," she claims."

    http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/nov/03/slide-show-1-our-average-student-outperforms-the-american.htm"


    Unbelievably brazen deceit and dishonesty. Or is it some kind of deeply pathological sel-delusion? Either way it is proof of Indian stupidity and corruption. These people are hopelessly irrational and incompetent con artists.

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  31. "Pitiful. So an example that places millions of Indians under identical circumstances as millions of Chinese and produces a comparable result or somewhat better in favor of Indians is to be dismissed as a consequence of a "select" group. Presumably it did not occur to you that exactly the same is true of Chinese in the US. "

    What is so pitiful are your lame attempts at deceit and dishonesty. Compare the numbers of Chinese students in the elite American universities to Indians. Compare the performance of Chinese in IQ Tests, international academic competitions, in socio-economic status in Malaysia, Singapore etc. Compare India, a miserable, filthy, disorganized place that is hungry and hellish even by third world standards. You guys are too damn stupid to even realize how foolish you look when preening with pride.

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  32. "in general my experience is that those who harp on about the superiority of particular groups tend to emerge from the loser end of that group."

    That should be an indictment of the Hindu caste system that defines the failed Indian culture. But I am guessing that you are too hypocritical to confront your own societal failings, while constantly pointing fingers at nations that are vastly superior to India in providing opportunities to far more of their citizens and even to immigrant ingrates such as yourself.

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  33. "You guys are too damn stupid to even realize how foolish you look when preening with pride. "

    Don't burst the bubble, don't burst the bubble. India is the BEST. And you are just too stupid to understand how smart Indians are .. what would become of the West if not for its Indian saviors?

    P.S. India is making remarkable progress. Last I checked, it went from super-super shithole to super shithole in just 20 years. At this rate, it might even become just a shithole by 2050.

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  34. "But I am guessing that you are too hypocritical to confront your own societal failings, while constantly pointing fingers at nations that are vastly superior to India in providing opportunities to far more of their citizens and even to immigrant ingrates such as yourself. "

    To be fair, there is no proof that he is an ingrate or that he is an immigrant. Anyway, truth over propaganda - any day, any time. Reality is what it is.

    - An Indian immigrant.

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  35. I don't think the discussion over the apparent difference in average IQ between two people meaningful. Most studies failed to find direct correlation between personal success and IQ. This is because many other important elements such as work ethics, tenacity, communication skills, willingness to take risk, creativity etc are equally important. Secondly, it's widely known that performance of a group does not directly correlate to sum of individual IQ. Any soccer fan knows this, having a team of star players does not guarantee victory. This is because team work, personal dynamics and institutional traditions are also important to overall performance. Real life is more closely model by soccer than tennis. Thirdly, IQ is not independent of education. A lower average IQ reflects a poorer access to quality education. As this improve, so would IQ.

    Having had an IQ test myself (courtesy of my psychology major friends), I don't find it a meaningful exercise at all. What's Mozart's IQ? Whats Akio Morita's IQ? What's Thomas Jefferson's? Whats Michaelangelo's? Hypothetically, if Mozart failed his math exam, does it change anything? Does arranging shapes and looking for numerical pattern reflect anything in real life? So far, no one has paid me to finish my exams.

    I don't find the fact that Indian-Americans (also Philipino-Americans) achieves a high personal income surprising. There are many Chinese educated professionals working well below their educational attainments. This is mainly due to language/cultural barrier. Naturalized Chinese Americans - Steven Chu, Gary Locke, are not doing too badly.

    - A Chinese immigrant

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  36. George Bush had quite a low IQ. He still became president of the US.

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  37. India is known for inventing the number zero. Without that, all other math is useless.

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  38. So how about those who invented the other numbers? How about the investors who invested in optical fibres that linked India to the rest of the world? Without that, India wouldn't have progessed from the shithole it was to something better it is today.

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  39. Man I'd prefer Indians any day you fuckin chingas!! all you cunts do is memorise shit and rip off ideas from other people! You plagiarize and counterfeit everything possible, your all just a bunch of rip-off merchants. stick to sewing my fucking trousers your slanty eyed cunts.

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    Replies
    1. you have a stereotyped view of Chinese I pity you - you think the Chinese are brainless rote learning people: think again?

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  40. fuck man I got a million of you cunts at my uni all you do is talk in gook to each other!! You cunts study so hard but you are actually retarded. whats the point in spending all that money coming here to study if ya cant even talk english. Chingas are the fukin rudest cunts ive every met

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  41. see china is going to go down, it is simple - Some of the factors:

    1) State controlled Media
    2) We can't trust the numbers you report.
    3) The price of democracy
    4) English - Yes you guys dont and I know a lot of them before I make the comment.
    5) The culture is completely different and in the times of globalization it is gonna hurt!
    6) Well you can't google, oh sorry Baitu or something even the word : Revolution

    and other factors are also coming to my mind, never mind then!

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  42. In response to the following comment from the idiot above:

    >>I see that our super intelligent chinese >>wannabe overlord has a peculiarly poor >>understanding of statistics, making >>population wide proclamations based on a >>narrow sample set of "Olympiads". This is >>akin to making claims for the health of a >>population based on the number of medals won >>in the olympics; based on this measure >>Americans are the fittest nation on earth
    >>(more medals per capita than china), ignoring >>the tens of millions wallowing in morbid >>obesity.

    I see that this idiot doesn't have any clue about statistic but still tried to talk big. Do you know how statisticians choose their samples? Obviously, even a three years old kid knows that the statistic sample should be choosen radomly, unbiasly; and that it is important to try to select a sample that will be representative of the population.
    Now why is this idiot stupid? Well, he cited olympic athletics as an example. That is none sense because those athletics are not being chosen randomly. Rather, they are chosen for their skills and talents. In other they are the elite group. They don't fairly represent the whole population. So how can you use them as an example, idiot!
    Now, as for why Indians in the U.S. are doing well? That is because almost all of them come to the U.S. with professional work Visa, so as result, only the best from Indian can qualify for that. In other words, you took a top group of Indian to compare with a mixed group (some good, some okay, some are not good) of other ethnics and claimed victory. Don't forget that the best and brightest chinese are still living in their country. But do you know what idiot? Even for that, the top Indians in the U.S. can barely compete with a so so group of Chinese in America.

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  43. I forgot to mention that the international olympiad contests do not mean to show the average IQ of each country's people. However, it does indicate which country has the best and the brightest and the most talent pools. So in that sense, China is far more ahead of Indiot..I meant India..

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